2.1.0 Reverb bug

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Posts: 47
Joined: April 25, 2016 - 12:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

So is it possible to bypass the BASS introduction of adding additional final reverb and chorus commands after rendering? It seems horrendous to have to set one final value for each after setting hundreds or thousands of individual settings in a soundfont designed to sound a certain way. (Insert Sean Bean meme, "One does not simply set one effects value for a soundfont").

I tried unchecking the SysEX option and setting both values to 0 but as I suspected all this does is set the output to no reverb or chorus no matter how the soundfont is supposed to sound/already setup.

I understand what you say about MIDI files containing different controller settings and not being played correctly. Maybe there is a way to introduce a simple reset command when a new file is played (though as I mentioned in another thread, this is what I had to do with Winamp's MIDI file plugin settings, it's much easier to do on the file player side of things). Or a reset command like the release only oldest note command.

Public MIDI files shouldn't contain reverb or chorus effects controllers setup only for the original sequencer's hardware and software requirements, it will sound completely different to everyone else (I know this isn't your fault!). ;-)  It would be much better to set things up correctly for the whole idea of soundfont management rather than a group of irresponsibly/poorly configured individual MIDI files.

http://kiwi6.com/artists/GEN_MIDI

Posts: 47
Joined: April 25, 2016 - 12:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

As you said that in previous versions of VMS 90's controllers in MIDI files were just ignored, is it still possible to add this as an option? For any or all modern controllers also?

http://kiwi6.com/artists/GEN_MIDI

Posts: 1542
Joined: March 25, 2012 - 01:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug
Kj wrote:
Public MIDI files shouldn't contain reverb or chorus effects controllers setup only for the original sequencer's hardware and software requirements

You're right, that's why I haven't managed 91/93 at first place... but please read on

coolsoft wrote:
It all started in VMS1 when someone pointed out that BASS applied a default Reverb/Sustain level to MIDI synthesis; it seems that it starts with a default value of 64 which seemed way too high for some users.
Then the needing to set it to a custom value, and this is the intended usage of that setting.

This is partially true: BASS uses 91/93 controller values as a "percentage" of the maximum value set with GS/XG SysEX messages (or resets).
Falcosoft gave a detailed explanation in this older post: http://coolsoft.altervista.org/en/forum/post/370#post370
I've forgot that thread but now, reading it again, I understand why I haven't managed 91/93 controllers.
That explains why, now that I did, the final effect is worst.

Kj wrote:
That would make sense, but still something strange is happening. Ever since late April 2016 I've been working on my own soundfont, and from whatever version of VMS was available then right up to 2.0.1 those reverb and chorus settings worked as max allowed rather then set as (for me, at least).

Should have read this sentence more carefully (and have a better memory but, who knows ;)) to remember the intended behavior.
Now will revert changes done in latest 2 betas except for:
- initialization of Reverb/Chorus values (random values could be set)
- rephrase the description of Reverb/Chorus options (they were just updated, translators will kill me!)

Posts: 47
Joined: April 25, 2016 - 12:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

After reading Falcosoft's post, I'm more confused than ever (I'm not exactly what you would call a programer). X-D

So the BASSMIDI settings are "percentage"/an up-to value allowed?

I'm sure the translators are glad to have normal, relaxed civilian matters to work with rather than their regular multi-lingual counter-espionage activities. ;-)

Hey, at least you spotted that random values bug. Who knows how long that could have gone unnoticed otherwise.

http://kiwi6.com/artists/GEN_MIDI

Posts: 3
Joined: March 12, 2013 - 16:30
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

Hi. Damnified translator here. Just kidding! :)

I want to offer my opinion speaking as a VMS user and also as a developer: just remove the two values (reverb and chorus) from the VMS configuration.

My use case is feeding VMS in real time, sending MIDI events to it from my own software VMPK, which is just a MIDI controller (a piano) emulation. I rarely need to play MIDI files, but even in this case I keep VMPK connected just in case I want to play along, or to send some adjustments. For instance, the MIDI mode: GS, GM or XG, and also the type of reverb: Hall, Room, Stage, etc. In VMPK you may create arbitrary buttons that send SYSEX files among other things. The option "Override received MIDI SYSEX messages" in VMS checked by default is annoying and perplexing for me. Just ditch it as well.

Looking at the Bass MIDI implementation chart, the reverb level is just one of the several reverb configurable parameters that can be set with a sysex  message. So why only this one, and not the high/low pass cutoff frequency filters? or the reverb time? For my own taste, it is much more practical to work with the presets (hall, room, stage, plate, etc.) So you could simply offer a list box with all the available presets just in case the user's player has no way to send reset SYSEX messages. VanBasco can do it, by the way.

Finally, speaking as a translator: if you decide to keep the contents of the "Default GS/XG MIDI effects" group box, please fix the layout. Labels aligned to the left and spin boxes and check boxes to the right. The Spanish translation barely fits.

Posts: 47
Joined: April 25, 2016 - 12:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

I've just realised the demo for my soundfont using VMS 2.0.1 still isn't how it sounds (oops), the old MIDI to WAV converter doesn't use the synth settings in VMS options? So it hasn't the full amount of reverb. If there is a VMS update soon with the reverb & chorus fix I'll remember to post an updated demo.

http://kiwi6.com/artists/GEN_MIDI

Posts: 1542
Joined: March 25, 2012 - 01:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

Version 2.3.1-beta3 is ready to test.

It features:

  • correct Reverb/Chorus initial values for MIDI synthesizer
  • MIDI converter using Reverb/Chorus
  • improved and optimized MIDI converter

Please report any issue...

UPDATE: attachment removed, please see below for 2.3.1-beta4

Posts: 47
Joined: April 25, 2016 - 12:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

Excellent! I think this is it my friend, it seems the problem is solved. :-)

I've only tested it briefly on my main PC, but everythig seemed to work fine. On my laptop for some reason Windows default MIDI was still used until after a reboot, but nothing listed needing to close when doing a clean install. Other than that, perfect.

It's only recently I realised all the previous online demos of my soundfont were made with the early version of the midi converter which didn't use the specified reverb/chorus settings, they sound quite dry in comparison to the actual soundfont. So here's a new demo, same Indy Raiders of the Lost Ark End Credits midi using my soundfont and the new midi converter:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApDMaHDx0bwNgSwYTOHbDzbx_wh4

It's all been made with only free stuff, so I can release it sometime soon.

http://kiwi6.com/artists/GEN_MIDI

Posts: 1542
Joined: March 25, 2012 - 01:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug

Another beta that fixes a weird watchdog bug (posted here)...

Attachments (Only registered users)
CoolSoft_VirtualMIDISynth_2.3.1-beta4.zip
Posts: 1542
Joined: March 25, 2012 - 01:19
Re: 2.1.0 Reverb bug
Kj wrote:

Excellent! I think this is it my friend, it seems the problem is solved. :-)

I've only tested it briefly on my main PC, but everythig seemed to work fine. On my laptop for some reason Windows default MIDI was still used until after a reboot, but nothing listed needing to close when doing a clean install. Other than that, perfect.

Thanks for your help in reporting bug and testing fixes ;)

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