Bank select, VMS

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Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Bank select, VMS

Bank select, VMS, (.Ove4)

Hi.

1) When I look at some .sf2 file in 'polysynth' I see some patches are made to be banks. (I.e set as 032-[1/128], instead of 000-[1/128].)

2) In my score prog (.OVE4), when using VMS, I can not see bank controller choices ('0-32' etc) when I click on the 'banks' pulldowns.

I use to see banks choices in those pulldowns, when using other external devices.

Is VMS unable to access banks in the sf2 files?

My instinct says "VMS does access sf2 banks". In that case can someone point me to an explantion that shows how to access banks in OVE4 when using VMS? My score prog 'HELP' is useless at explaining banks.

Posts: 74
Joined: September 25, 2013 - 16:38
Re: Bank select, VMS

I do not know 'OVE4' and Google also could not give relevant results so I can only help with some general guidelines:

Yes, Bassmidi/VMS and SF2 soundfonts support 128 banks. 127 melodic banks and 1 drum/percussion bank.

Sequencers/DAWs and 'Score proggs' has no means to get the capabilities of a Midi out port. So they cannot tell if a port supports banks or not and what way is supported if any (GS like Bank MSB only addressing or XG like Bank MSB + Bank LSB addressing etc.) So usually in a Sequencer/DAW you can tell the program how to handle a given port. E.g in Cakewalk/Sonar you can use instrument definition(.ins) files. In other programs you can associate presets with ports. In this case a Roland GS, Roland Sound Canvas or something similar is usually the best choice for SF2 soundfont synths since the bank addressing mode (Bank MSB only) is the same.

If you cannot find such presets there is usually still a 'raw' approach. Namely in every DAW/Sequencer I know there is a raw Midi Events view where you can insert raw Midi events/messages to tracks. In such a view you should select 'Controller 0' (meaning Bank Select MSB) and the value of the bank you would like to reach in the SF2 file. So in case of Bank 32 insert Controller 0 with value of 32. It's important to know that Bank Select MSB (CC# 0) messages only have a meaning together with Program Change messages. So after you have inserted a Bank Select MSB (CC# 0) you should also insert a Program Change message for Bank Select messages to take effect. If you are testing with full GM/GS SF2 files I usually recommend the last program (Bank Select MSB 0, Program 127 in case of 0 based numbering) named 'Pistol' in GM. If then you send a Bank Select MSB 1 message together with Program Change 127 you should get 'Machine Gun' instead. They are easily distinguishable so you will know if you will have done everything right.

Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Re: Bank select, VMS

I meant "polyphone" [editor] above.

....

The response explanation given was inadequate.

Selecting banks in the expression pull-down and track pane of OVERTURE 4.

Does anyone know how to?

Attachments (Only registered users)
capture_22112019_033925.jpg
Posts: 74
Joined: September 25, 2013 - 16:38
Re: Bank select, VMS

Hi,

The response explanation was completely adequate, it's another problem that you could not understand it...

Speaking about adequacy it would have been much easier if you had explicitly mentioned OVERTURE 4 in your first post ( and not some ambiguous abbreviation).

Anyway, here is how it works:

This is the most important you should understand: As I have wtitten above OVERTURE 4 has no means to get the capabilities of a Midi out port. You should tell it how to handle your choosen port. As I have suspected and written about above OVERTURE 4 uses instrument definition(.ins) files to define Bank handling of a given port. You can select such definition in Options->Instruments. Here you can see multiple options and as I have said above you should select Roland GS for melodic channels and Roland GS Drumsets for Drum channel (channel 10). To be more precise you can edit the 'Master.ins' file in OVERTURE's main folder to achieve exact match with your SF2 file. Or you can import your custom ins file also in Options->Instruments. But for starting choosing Roland GS is the easiest option. After you have done this you can select banks that are defined in GS specification (this usually works since most SF2 files are GM/GS compatible). Notice that Bank numbers are the same as Variation numbers in GS terminology. Picture attached:

Attachments (Only registered users)
overture4_banks.jpg
Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Re: Bank select, VMS

Thanks Falco! That worked.

I haven't tested if I can access banks in a sound font file, since I am not using sfs with banks right now. But I got the results you showed; I think that will be good. (I construct my own soundfonts in polyphone and I will be adding bank options.)

.......

Decades ago, I use to use a JV1080 and Triton. I would open MIDI files with a 'sys ex' included and that sys ex would set things automatically without me knowing what it did or how. I would be able to see bank options in ove.4 expression pulldowns.

When I use to be able to see banks options in my expression pulldowns (as sys ex set it), the options weren't the 'GS capiltol or var#1...9' headings. It would show the 4 banks categories ("[0, 0-32 etc]").

...........

How do I edit the (GS and XG) ini files? ...Net search and download an editor I suppose. What ini editor do you trust and like?

.....

Thanks again.

Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Re: Bank select, VMS

I figured it out.

ini. files are edited simply with WIN notepad.

One changes the instrument defs (at bottom) and then each heading pointed to by those new defs to same name.

Then one changes any of the entries (under the headings) and those will now show up in the host (notation or sequencer).

Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Re: Bank select, VMS

Hello again.

What must I do to actually access bank-patches?

I set, in the expression pulldown (above attached image), the bank and bank's patch to what I know is a bank-patch in the sf file, but only the capital patch (default) plays back.

I eventually did set the controller field in that pulldown (above image) to '32' (LSB) and the value to assorted ones (mostly 127). BUT still no joy.

I am using the 'yamaha XG' stock .ini file. If the prob is in there, it would be odd. (Do I have to add something to the maste ini?)

What am I doing wrong?

Posts: 74
Joined: September 25, 2013 - 16:38
Re: Bank select, VMS

Hi,

I have explicitly mentioned above that soundfonts (and also Bassmidi/VMS) in not compatible with XG style bank addressing scheme...

So your choice was wrong and instead of XG style variations (Banks LSB) you shoud have used GS style (Bank MSB) mode as I suggested before.

I have attached an ins file that exactly defines my soundfont you can download from here:

http://falcosoft.hu/reality_gmgs_falcomod.zip

You can use it as a test and a learning tool to study how bank definitions work in ins files. Also you can open the soundfont in your soundfont editor to see how the banks in the sf2 file correspond the banks in the instrument definition file.

I have also uploaded a video how you can use banks in Overture 4.

https://youtu.be/u0eNA4eP_O0

Bye

Attachments (Only registered users)
Reality_GMGS_falcomod.zip
Posts: 18
Joined: January 23, 2018 - 18:11
Re: Bank select, VMS

Falco!

Thanks. That works great.

You're `the Man.

I have been trying to finalize an Overture4 template grand-score and soundset (one format or another [e.g kontakt, Aria]) for years and years. It is almost done; And now because of you (AND CLAUDIO) it is really close to being complete and perfect after years and years.

Thanks again. (Both of you; but specifically here Falco.)

Because of you guys, we don't have to rely on the conmen (never done) tech INDUSTRY.

Really; very cool. :)

....

Falco, how do you like Overture 4?

Posts: 1544
Joined: March 25, 2012 - 01:19
Re: Bank select, VMS
JM_1234321 wrote:
Thanks again. (Both of you; but specifically here Falco.)

@falcosoft always gives a great help when we get deep into MIDI details ;)
Thanks a lot!